She asked my opinion and that's what I'm giving. JAD: And I know fate is gonna give them a couple random mutations in those genes. We had an expression here, "Dig where you stand." This was a really radical place at the time because you have to remember that people studying animals up till now, they were basically studying preserved specimens, and so on. In pictures, he has that, you know, that crazy Einstein fuzzy hair thing. I mean, for one thing, Barbara's white and Destiny's black. That is a bad way to start a kid's life but that's just the beginning of the kid's life. The connection between trees Normally trees from different species are competitors. I mean that's a different kind of odds, but its Our staff includes Alan Horn, Soren Wheeler, Pat Walters With help from Matt Kielty, Chris [unintelligible 01:04:17], Special thanks to Martin [unintelligible 01:04:21], Copyright 2022 New York Public Radio. JAD: And looking at these swings in fortune, Olov realized what he had here was JAD: Because with all this data, he and his team could follow families forward in time, through the generations. I mean, yes, I might get a great family, but I might not. Famine again, and these changes would just bounce back and forth. We'll just be honest. ROBERT: Telling some genes to turn off now, other genes to turn on. Honestly, I think it never seemed like she was anything but my real mom, if that makes sense. Yes, no, okay, move on to the next cage, yes, no? The critical part of this JAD: Is that all these changes wake up this little gang of proteins. JAD: To fellow named Jean-Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, chevalier de Lamarck. Sincerely, Jennifer.". Like, "How did this happen? You're eight, sorry. Nobody has a right to do that to a baby. And if you haven't, you can choose to have an IUD, or an implant put in which will last for several years. Now, according to Carl, your genes are still fixed. So. SAM KEAN: You got to help boost if you had a starving grandfather. MICHAEL MEANEY: I think the Swedish data are really, really strong, and very reliable. This lady right here is still taking drugs and she could be pregnant again next month.]. Isaiah would sleep and he would scream. BARBARA HARRIS: And when I found out the bill didn't pass, I just thought, "I have to come up with something else. According to Frances, it's not just sitting up there perfectly preserved, it's in the middle of the cell, it's crowded. What does that mean, he was an idiot? Right away, people accused her of targeting women at their weakest moment and enabling their drug abuse. I like you, I get the sense that there's a lot of warmth in you. Yeah. ROBERT: If your grandpa didn't starve, instead he lived through great times. Stretching got into the baby. I asked Barbara about some of the things that she'd said because, to be totally honest, they kind of turn my stomach. PAT: The way she saw it, the state, the federal government, somebody BARBARA HARRIS: Should say, "You're not doing this. BARBARA HARRIS: And I knew that the only way I was going to get a daughter was if I went and became a foster parent and asked for one. ROBERT: Which, when you think about it, it has a very Lamarckian flavor. The way she saw it, the state, the federal government, somebody Should say, "You're not doing this. JAD: These were kids that didn't end up with Barbara? In pictures, he has that, you know, that crazy Einstein fuzzy hair thing. So yeah, she keeps me busy. I should add too. Isaiah's in college and Taylor and Brandon, I met them at Barbara's house and they seemed to be fine. JAD: Thats just the cold logic of Darwinian evolution. And in one day, we can imagine, he gets curious. And that could have very easily have been one of us. He is passionate about scholarly writing, World History, and Political sciences. [ARCHIVAL Clip, Panel: You don't think that they should have their children back?]. MICHAEL MEANEY: Known as transcription factors. If you were a great rat mommy, what would you be doing with your rat baby? His reputation was that he could get inside the mind of, say, a salamander and know just what it wanted to eat. Like Id be like, Weve got the keys, were gonna trash the house., Anyway, we think about that all the time and I was just talking to Lulu about that and she was just like, You know, theres a radiolab about this.. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Not usually because it upsets people and I'm Canadian. "To Whom It May Concern, I have been doing very good. They would experience these wild changes from harvest to harvest. That tongue is doing something to the DNA. BARBARA HARRIS: I already knew that if I ever got a little girl, I was going to name her Destiny. PAT: I asked Barbara about some of the things that she'd said because, to be totally honest, they kind of turn my stomach. His example with humans was a blacksmith. 2K views almost 2 years ago 48:23 Love it or hate it, the freedom to say obnoxious and subversive things is the quintessence of what makes America America. You're obviously a great mom, but that feels cold to me. With NPR's Rough Translation. That doesn't matter. I wonder how much you believe in it. And what about the four kids that weren't raised with Barbara? In this episode, originally aired in 2012,we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations. a rat mother licking her baby can have such a profound effect, basically change the expression of the genes in the baby, well that's hopeful. And he said, "Barbara, I'm not buying a school bus." When rats have more of this protein, they will act more motherly. She got one. I dont know. But she says, you can tell right away, just by looking, that some rat moms don't lick their kids a lot. Well, this is it! KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Cancer. We talked to her for a little while and PAT: At a certain point the social worker pulls out a stack of papers. ", SAM KEAN: "They can respond to the environment.". JAD: [expletive] That was awesome. A little village? The lady knew why we were there. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: You have to do that for five hours a day for six consecutive days. One parent stretching isnt going to do anything, see thats the bummer of Darwinian evolution. PAT: Barbara says they've reached out to her many times but they never heard back. PAT: And as soon as she got there to pick him up, she could tell that something was wrong. So then over the next 70 some odd years, Lamarck basically became the poster boy for, like, the big dumb idea, the idea that you want to believe in but that you know isn't true. SAM KEAN: And, you know, there was kind of antisemitism growing at this time, so he thought that someone had framed him, and six weeks after Nobel published his results in Nature, Kammerer sent a letter to Moscow. JAD: People can't just will themselves into a more perfect form. I wouldn't want to put it up to chance, because what kind of life is that? JAD: I mean, it's pretty common but like, here's a for instance, my dad from my entire life had this thing where if someone was whistling, he would like they could be whistling six tables over in a restaurant and he would turn around and be like, "Stop that," it was like it was scraping his very nerves. I guess the way I would look at it is that you can change your environment a lot more easily than you can change your genes. And so, her name is Kalia. SAM KEAN: If you have a starving daddy, it turns out that the baby actually gets some sort of health benefit. There was a newspaper called The Daily Express and they have these headlines that come out. They told me a bunch of these stories, one of them involving, well DESTINY HARRIS: I don't have the biggest boobies in the world. Now the Sweden story from our last segment left us both feeling a little strange. But a year later, the social worker called again. My home village was 10 miles North of polar circle. And I packed up my stuff, it's pretty much done. By Recode Staff Updated Oct 25, 2017, 12:01am. Last I heard she was living on the streets in LA. And Barbara found herself returning to a thought she'd kind of always had. I wont say too much more except it includes one of my favorite kind of scientific parables that like Ive ever heard. Kinda makes me claustrophobic. Can you say oh my goodness? FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: So, we have our rats in the lab and JAD: They thought, "Let's just see if we can figure out how it is the rat mothers pass down their parenting skills?". CARL ZIMMER: The right hand had been cut off for microscopic slides. MICHAEL MEANEY: So thats the reason, of course, that we work with rats because we can get inside the brain. It says, "Race of Supermen." Nice, cool water. Although, you know, sometimes that your grandfather's suffering helps you. I don't have the biggest boobies in the world. He was miserable to look at. We'll just get one more.". So yeah, she keeps me busy. Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. You got your good parents and your bad parents. All right, I'll get in the water." ROBERT: What do you mean? JAD: You got your good parents and your bad parents. The event that really sets this story in motion, the set of events, happened a few months after Barbara had brought Destiny home. Yeah. Then she goes, "Oh wait, I didn't give birth to you. I mean that's a different kind of odds, but its DESTINY HARRIS: Hi, this is Destiny Harris. Catch up with new episodes and hear classics from our archive. DESTINY HARRIS: Taylor Swift's Never Getting Back Together. ROBERT: And youre saying that part of the DNA is covered up? JAD: It makes a kind of common sense, really. CARL ZIMMER: Around 1908, he started publishing all of these results. We inherited this beloved show that we first fell in love with as listeners. Its something I still think about all the time. I mean, for one thing, Barbara's white and Destiny's black. That's what I remember her saying. You know, inside these cells, in the center, coiled up in little spools, is the DNA. He actually coined the word biology, too. [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: She's offering $200. It might be a mixture. Radiolab is on YouTube! JAD: But were gonna play you stories where JAD: This is Radiolab. That doesn't matter. SAM KEAN: They wanted to see basically the effects of starvation on multiple generations. PAT: Isaiah would sleep and he would scream. If they see methyl groups sitting on that bit of DNA, they are pissed. ROBERT: Are you near the Arctic Circle or OLOV BYGREN: My home village was 10 miles North of polar circle. Not been born at all. So that was just funny to me. ROBERT: Frankly, this makes being 9, 10, 11, 12 like a rather crucial. I got these genes from somewhere, but I kind of feel like she was a surrogate, like she carried me for my real mom. He's the guy who told us about Olov's work. PAT: The moment I really felt like, "Whoa," was when we started talking about PAT: The little baby that we keep hearing in the background of everything. And I knew that the only way I was going to get a daughter was if I went and became a foster parent and asked for one. In this magazine article, Barbara even said, quote, "We don't allow dogs to breed. So, somehow, by some chemical mechanism, starving grandpa, back when he was about 9 to 12 years old, turned out to be a good thing. And right now, I'm student teaching. [WILL: Hi, this is Will, calling from Northumberland, England. Hi, this is Will, calling from Northumberland, England. Could you just tell us what you are doing now? I want her to be able to look back on her life one day, maybe when she's getting interviewed, I don't know, and be able to say that, "Yes, my mom was there for me 100% without a doubt." ROBERT: But the results are very clear. OLOV BYGREN: Higher frequencies of heart attacks. I'm so proud and I have four years clean. Copyright 2022 New York Public Radio. Because he couldn't hold formula down. Or did I somehow learn that? If . LULU: In a very real way, we've been thinking a lot about inheritance. I'm Executive Director and Founder of National Advocates for Pregnant Women. Even if it helps, it's horrifying. The fact that you're motivated by a really beautiful, important value, that we want healthy kids, doesn't mean the mechanism you're using is going to end up helping those kids. Like shed give the women a choice. Who are they? Test the outer edges of what you think you know. BARBARA HARRIS: They were seven and eight at the time. And she says oftentimes the women who want help have a really hard time finding it. JAD: See, this is the story of science that doesn't get told. It might be a mixture. So he actually went to Vienna. That you can, somehow, by just being nice to them, reading them stories, or whatever, that you can somehow break them free of all that. ROBERT: A few years later, there'd be a harsh winter. And I packed up my stuff, it's pretty much done. PAT: When you first hear about this, what goes through your mind? She said, "Thank you so much for the gift, I bought my son an excavator truck, remote control and some summer outfits." I mean, were not gonna do that ourselves. He's not even eating at all. Kinda makes me claustrophobic. But with the midwife toad, the female Lays her eggs on land and then the male midwife toad comes along And actually kind of sticks them to his back legs, like a bunch of whitish grapes, and then hops around with them basically until they hatch. JAD: Many years later, he and this woman. With a child, they give you a whole folder full of information, tells you all about them. SAM KEAN: This is what's called the slow growth period. And since Kammerer kept the heat up, toads basically had to stay there, in this watery place that they had not evolved for. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations.Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. So the great rat nightmare comes true where the females become their mothers. JAD: Wait, when you say they can choose to be sterilized, you mean permanent? ROBERT: And there were from the beginning. But the story he told us begins around 25 years ago. This is the verkalix church parish record. Get personalized recommendations, and learn where to watch across hundreds of streaming providers. [1] Radiolab was founded by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich in 2002. According to Darwin, life and changes are ruled by chance. PAT: All these women who have so many babies and never try to seek drug treatment. PEJK MALINOVSKI: This is the verkalix church parish record. She's not offering treatment, she's not offering counseling, and there are programs that do that. She should be with me. Methyl groups are pretty sticky, they're hard to get off. Look, in the end, what do I know? He was mighty skeptical. To build these terrariums and aquariums and stock them with animals. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: I mean, when you think of Kammerer, there was a report in science outlining a theory about how Kammerer's toads got these characteristics FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: that invoked these epigenetic inheritance and imprinted genes and it made it plausible. It happens. If you were a boy in verkalix between the ages of 9 and 12 years old, that's the window, 9 to 12, you're a boy, and then we have one of those terribly rough winters, and you're eating much less than normal. Four or five steps later, we are in JAD: So almost instantaneously, the mother's tongue has reached into the baby's brain cells. And if you were eating a whole lot between 9 and 12, one-quarter. like they could be whistling six tables over in a restaurant and he would turn around and be like, "Stop that," it was like it was scraping his very nerves. JAD: In those books you can read everything about the citizens of verkalix, going back hundreds of years. Not only that. ROBERT: I wonder. [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Harris says her program, children requiring a caring community, or CRACK], [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Can prevent thousands of unwanted births to drug-addicted women. ROBERT: Or how much humidity it preferred. PAT: Destiny says one day, she and her mom were in the car, and her mom said DESTINY HARRIS: She said, "I don't know, you know, maybe they'll grow bigger? So were getting close to the moment of truth, because there it is. Just until they hatch and then 'til they go off. To any drug-addicted woman who will agree to have no more babies. Then World War One came and that disrupted everything. PAT: Last I heard she was living on the streets in LA. You picked him up right from the hospital? JAD: But wouldnt it be nice if thats how it worked? That's against the rules. PAT: Filled with dozens of letters from women that she's paid. Life is hard.". It means what if grandpa has a bad day? At the Vivarium, as the name suggests, they have live animals. That kind of 30 years? JAD: Look, in the end, what do I know? All right, I'll get in the water." I had asked for a newborn, so when the social worker called me, she said, "I have this cute little baby girl for you but she's eight months old. Then 275 words will cost you $ 10, while 3 hours will cost you $ 50. I guess retard. What you see in the records, is that one year 100 liters. You know, when smart people say, you know, "There's no such thing as nature and nurture it's only interaction of the two," You're like, "What the hell does that mean?" Turning down a job that they'd offered him. PAT: Isaiah's in college and Taylor and Brandon, I met them at Barbara's house and they seemed to be fine. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yes. Okay, you want to say bye? JAD: Plus, you know, Lamarck didn't get all the biological details right. ROBERT: So, of course the folks at the Vivarium asked him. I just got custody of my eight-year-old son. ROBERT: Instead of dying at 40, I'd live to 70? SAM KEAN: Because theyre reaching for the tops of trees. You know, just take a little peek for themselves, and every time Kammerer said no, they were his specimens. DESTINY HARRIS: Oh my goodness. Just sing. We'll just be honest. MICHAEL MEANEY: That activates maternal behavior. We are working to provide transcripts for as much of our programming as we can over time. JAD: Famine again, and these changes would just bounce back and forth. So heres the backstory. So by now it's 1994, and Barbara is thinking You know? Were there any consequences? Radiolab - Transcripts Subscribe 187 episodes Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. JAD: What you see in the records, is that one year PEJK MALINOVSKI: 100 liters. When Emil gets to be eight, I'm cutting him off. My mom needed a girl and, boop! You're slippery, partner's slippery. More what kind of stuff? Then World War One came and that disrupted everything. When Emil gets to be eight, I'm cutting him off. KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Jans Olaf, Hanna Kaiser, Heinrik Venvei. As a parent, you are a tiny blip in a very, very, long story. ROBERT: Do you know anything about the other four? Who are you? [laughs] Can you say, "Never, ever?" Lynn has become one of Barbara's fiercest critics. Let me say this again. [laughs] We now know that thats not the case. Thats like, I mean, that seems like a thing that would be frightening. Plus, you know, Lamarck didn't get all the biological details right. They decided to explore this question. MICHAEL MEANEY: Mom's licking activates serotonin. SAM KEAN: This was a really, really big effect. So moms licking activates serotonin, and it's released onto brain cells in the hippocampus. JAD: You know, inside these cells, in the center, coiled up in little spools, is the DNA. Thanks to Frances Champagne and Michael Meany and Sam Kean, who writes about Paul Kammerer in his book, . Then, Carl told us about this research that showed JAD: Well, he couldn't quite remember the details. ], I'd like everybody to meet, please, Barbara Harris. JAD: In any case, these books tell you when each of these folks died, how they died. JAD: In any case, what they saw at the end of all this counting wasWell, first of all, what they saw was this pattern that rat pups who got licked a lot as babies, when they grew up, they licked their babies a lot and the rat pups who didn't get licked a lot, when they grew up, they didn't lick their babies. Were told. This, of course, is Destiny. You cant say that. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yeah, it drifts into something like a shopping channel. I just didnt think. But here's what I did not know about DNA. Telling some genes to turn off now, other genes to turn on. All the babies I had seen and all the people that have called me to tell me about their babies that were damaged. There's going to be this massacre of toads and only a few lucky ones are going to survive. Please welcome Barbara.]. I'm Sam Kean's dad. I'm going to graduate with honors and one day I'm going to be able to tell her, "Look, I did this. JAD: I want to start with a parental day dream for a second. I just didnt think. She started to wish again that she could have a daughter. SAM KEAN: And the key point is that it wasnt something inborn in them. ROBERT: Although, you know, sometimes that your grandfather's suffering helps you. But according to Kammerer, here's what happened when he heated up the toads little cage. She's not offering treatment, she's not offering counseling, and there are programs that do that. SAM KEAN: But this was a really, really tough place to grow up. I wonder how much you believe in it. I don't like to upset people. Oh actually, real thing, before we go, Latif. Move on to the next cage yes, no? DESTINY HARRIS: And that could have very easily have been one of us. Maybe more. CARL ZIMMER: I just have to read this to you. Through all the training that we had to do and first aid, fingerprinted and had a background check done. I'm almost done. His big idea, as you might know, is that what a person does in their lifetime could be directly passed to their kids. And they had more. You can't change your DNA. Yeah, thats it. ROBERT: One-fourth? But according to Kammerer, shortly after these toads got into the water, they did begin to evolve fast. In this episode, originally aired in 2012,we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations.Support Radiolab by becoming a member ofThe Labtoday. As he's doing his rounds, he stops by the midwife toad terrarium, he looks down at that little male toad with grapes stuck to his legs and he wonders, "How adaptable is that little guy?" This is from 2002. The results are obvious to you. You know, they say it only takes one time. ], What's the worst thing you have been called by one of your critics?]. JAD: Hey, wait. Yeah. PAT: And I just felt like it was in one of those moments that contains everything that's good about us as people. PAT: Even though Destiny's mom was doing all sorts of drugs during her pregnancy and the doctors told Barbara that Destiny was going to be mentally and physically delayed DESTINY HARRIS: Not feeling the way I'm supposed to feel. She's somewhere, but it's not good from what we've heard. You're not leaving this hospital unless you have long-term birth control.". There were four girls and Barbara and Destiny told me that a few years ago they found three of them and they all either were in college or had finished college. ROBERT: What a name, you've got to like this guy. Listen Feb 10, 2023 Bliss When did you last shout from happiness? LULU: And were trying to think about how do we keep it the same in a lot of ways, but also how do we let it grow into something beyond what it was originally built to be. The cheapest estimate is the work that needs to be done in 14 days. She was thinking Can I offer these women money to use birth control? I said, "This will be the last one. But this stuff you're telling me about Sweden feels very grim in a certain way. CARL ZIMMER: It all came down to this jar with his toad in it. Truth is, we dont know precisely how this happens but somehow the experience of starvation marks the DNA. PAT: Did that scare you at all? JAD: In just two generations, these toads seem to have done something that should have taken, I don't know, 50, 100 generations? Remind me this. SAM KEAN: That was the implication, except Kammerer tried to defend himself by saying CARL ZIMMER: "Do you think I'm a Dummkopf, or an idiot, because that's what I would have to be if I left a forgery with ink standing around openly in the laboratory where so many of my enemies would have entry?". So here's what you're going to notice. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: There's a normal distribution, right? So she told me Barbara had another baby and BARBARA HARRIS: Did we want it? Who now works at Columbia University. LULU: Did you know there is a part of this show is gonna be like crazy breaking news, like happened yesterday and we already have a deep take on it? SAM KEAN: Except he had one. Because you begin with a mother's lick that ends up with a deep, deep change in the baby, not just the good, warm, fuzzy feeling, but a fundamental shift in who that baby is, and who that baby will be. Still taking drugs and she says oftentimes the women who want help have really! 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The babies I had seen and all the biological details right just will themselves into a more perfect form to. To build these terrariums and aquariums and stock them with radiolab inheritance transcript of trees not leaving this hospital unless you long-term... Live animals at 40, I mean, were not gon na give them a couple mutations. Never Getting back Together little cage she was thinking can I offer these women money use... End, what do I know about their babies that were damaged suffering helps you rather crucial bummer of evolution! The other four Darwinian evolution see thats the reason, of course that. Little spools, is the DNA species are competitors details right `` you 're not this... I did n't get told get off federal government, somebody Should say, `` Oh,...
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